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Offline Rob_h

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religious experience?
« on: August 27, 2011, 02:25:05 PM »
I have often wondered if my decision to be a donor was somewhat of a RE.  And I wonder if any other donors have wondered this too?  This is a bit hard to write about for several reasons, 1) I would define a RE being something just outside of the tips of being defined, something that happens that words, logic, and explaining just approch and outline but never are quite "it". 2) I have no religious beliefs, other than being a UU.
 
So I can give the outline, this happened, then that. And there were these factors at the time and so on.  But I am sure I cannot give the experience.

I had been watching the news about Besen Russia and the failure of the resuce of the children hostages.  I had been considering being a kidney donor for some time, recieving some lousy family advise to pick a "worthy" person or skip it altoghter.   A strong personal belief of mine is non-violence.  I took a long walk.  While walking I though about the children waiting for help that should have arrived but foolishly never did.  Then I thought, if only a few of those children could have been saved, no one would have said, "choose the worthy ones".  Then I thought about people on dialysis and how in some way they were like those children, waiting.  I then I decided that it did not matter who, that everyone was worthy, and that I was capable of being a donor, right now, no matter what.   

So that is my outline.  I really don't care if its a RE or just an emotional process on a walk deciding to be a donor, but I did think other donors might find it intestingg, Rob Halverson

Offline pilotjjc3

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2011, 10:52:55 PM »
Very interesting story.   I truly believe that everything happens for a reason.  There is a reason those thoughts went through your mind and there is a reason you are feeling a call to donate.  That is very unselfish of you to consider donating.  I also had family (wife) that wasn't totally onboard about my donation.  But I think that was because she worried that something may go wrong.  In the end, she accepted that this was my decision.

I can't say that I had any religious calling to donate.  I had a good friend in trouble, somebody needed to help him quickly, and I just happened to be in a position to help.  I can say that I had a strong sense of peace and wasn't nervous at all the day of the surgery.  I credit that to all of the people who were praying for us.

I can say that I did have a religious experience after the surgery.  The day of the surgery, any time a friend, family, nurse or doctor talked to me, they all would comment about what a big sacrifice I was making.  The day after the surgery, I had some complications and I can honestly say, from a physical standpoint, it was the worst day of my life (this had more to do with a very bad reaction to the anesthesia and drugs than from the surgery).  In any case,  I spent the day throwing up, in pain and very uncomfortable.  As I lay in bed, frustrated and angry, I said to myself, "so this is what I get for my sacrifice."  It was then that I believe God sent me a message.  It was at that moment that I thought about Christ's sacrifice on the cross and it helped me to have a better appreciation for what He did for me.  I was in a clean hospital with doctors and nurses waiting on me and giving me pain medicine.  Christ went though a lot worse without and pain medicine and He was alone and abandoned.  It really put things into perspective for me.  I'll never forget that and I still think about that a lot.


Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 10:55:35 PM by pilotjjc3 »

Offline Fr Pat

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2011, 11:10:13 PM »
     I have already described some of the religious aspects of my donation decision/experience in my narration on the "experiences of other living donors" section of this site (title: "Fr. Pat's non-directed donation".) I approached the idea of organ donation as a natural expression of what I already believed and was trying to put into practice (with mixed success). For me, since I took Jesus as my teacher, model and savior, organ donation seemed like a "no-brainer" response to his teachings "Love one another as I have loved you"; "Do to others what you would have them do for you"; "Whatever you did for the least of my brethern, you did for me", etc. I was quite surprised, however, at the deep emotional and spiritual impact that the donation has had, and continues to have, in my life.
     My own theory is that since the New Testament states that "God is love", anyone who goes so far as to donate an organ to another out of love will have a "religious experience" of God's love, regardless of what that person's explicit beliefs are, and regardless of what words that person finds to decscribe the experience. Others, of course, may think that this theory is nonsense. But since you posted the question, and your experience, sincerely, I offer my sincere personal responal response.
     best wishes,
        Fr. Pat

Offline Orchidlady

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2011, 08:07:56 AM »
I am not an overly religious person, but for probably about 4 or 5 years prior to the donation (and prior to the time my husband even became ill), I had this very odd urge or feeling that there was something I was supposed to do - that God wanted me to do something and I just didn't know what it was. I kept telling myself I would surely know when it happened, and to just keep doing what I was doing, and eventually I would find out the answer to this "mystery". I didn't think even think about the donation as that "something". However, after the surgery, I have not experienced that feeling of an unknown duty. Maybe it is a coincindence, or maybe it really was what I was meant to do.
Donated Left Kidney to Husband 10/30/07
Barnes Jewish Hospital
St. Louis, MO

Offline Rob_h

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2011, 04:42:09 PM »
What I find interesting about your decision to donate Patrick is while it was a "no brainer" from your religious beliefs, you were the one who took those beliefs and became a donor.  Not to complain about those who did not, everyone has there reasons and its ok; it may have been a "no brainer"to you, but you are the one who acted, and it makes all the difference in my book. Rob Halverson

donorgirl

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2011, 09:32:50 PM »
I read a statement once that said "donation is not salvation."  And it's kept me very grounded.  I'm not saved because I donated.  I'm saved because I believe in Jesus Christ and I'm saved by God's grace.  Being a Christian, I relied heavily on prayer, God and Jesus Christ to get me through my donation process.  I could not have done it without prayer.  I felt led by God to donate although I can't say I was eager to do it. 

That being said, I believe God finds a way to bring all His sheep into His fold.  And if He is reaching out to you through donation, then it's not for me to tell you whether it's a religious experience or not.  Only you know that.  And if you feel it is, then my guess is...it is.

I can say that donation led me on a path to discipleship.  I raise money for the Living Organ Donor Follow-Up Clinic at the UMMC where I donated.  I've been led to help other donors with their follow-up care.  I talk with other donors regularly and try to help them with the donation process through friendship and prayer.  People of all faiths who have a belief in God.

So my religion has played a huge part in my donation. And if it leads someone to believe in God and Jesus Christ, then I absolutely think it was God driven.  I respect you for reaching out and I hope you continue to do so.

Best,


Lee Adams (donated July 2007)

Offline PhilHoover

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Yes, it was!
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 05:16:57 AM »
My story in short:

1) I found out on Facebook (of all places) that one of my college professors (from the early 1980s) needed a kidney transplant.

2) Being a Bible-believing Christian, who has sought to follow Christ for 43 years of my almost 50 years on earth, I started praying, "Lord, somewhere, someone has to be a match.  Lord, please provide a kidney for Dr Bill."

3) Immediately, the Holy Spirit spoke to me, "You are a match."  I immediately said "yes" without hesitation.

4) Some seven months (and a lot of tests, etc) later, we were both admitted to the University of Alabama-Birmingham Medical Center, where I would donate my left kidney to a precious, wonderful man.

5) That was TWENTY-TWO months ago now...and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
Donated to a former college professor, October 28, 2009. Would do it again in a nanosecond.

Offline Rob_h

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 09:07:38 AM »
Maybe using the term religious was a bit much.  I only meant it in the William James very broad sense, not in the the context of any religious belief systems, of which I know almost nothing.  I of course did not donate to become a part of a religious belief or claim religion or salvation.  But my only point was did other donors find the experience something in the course of donating that they are still striving to understand, that changed the course of future life events, and that maybe feels at the tips of logic and understanding.    Maybe not a "religious" experience, but a an experience that really mattered, thats out of the ordinary.  It seems lots of other donors have found this to be the case.   If I offended anyone by "religious",  my appolgies.  Rob Halverson

Offline rdr321

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 11:50:15 AM »
There are also people who donate out of an ultruistic wish to help others who do not believe that there is a loving god out there. This is not the place to get into a discussion about it. But I think some people who could benifit from this site may be driven away by seeing people writing about god telling them to donate.
   I do not mean to put anyone down for feeling called. What I am saying is non believers may think it is very strange that god is telling you to do things.
    Sorry Rob

Offline pilotjjc3

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2011, 01:36:13 PM »
There are also people who donate out of an ultruistic wish to help others who do not believe that there is a loving god out there. This is not the place to get into a discussion about it. But I think some people who could benifit from this site may be driven away by seeing people writing about god telling them to donate.
   I do not mean to put anyone down for feeling called. What I am saying is non believers may think it is very strange that god is telling you to do things.
    Sorry Rob

Different people may feel compelled to donate for different reasons and for whatever those reasons are, it is GOOD that they are donating.  They are helping someone else in desperate need.  Some may feel a calling by God, some may not believe in God, some may do it as a last chance to save a family member, etc. 

I disagree that this discussion may drive people away from this site.  That is a very "politically correct" thing to do, but people are honestly sharing why they went about donating.  Are some Christians called by God to donate...probably.  Are some non-Christians compelled to donate for other reasons...probably.  I don't think I am a better Christian for donating and I don't think less of any Christian or non-Christian for not donating.  Some people are called to be priest, rabbi's, preachers etc, some aren't.  Some are called to donate, some aren't. 

Offline pilotjjc3

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2011, 01:43:02 PM »
BTW,  even if this thread wasn't the intent of the OP, I think it is a good and interesting discussion.

Offline Rob_h

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2011, 02:29:30 PM »
The experience I had was not one of being "called", lead or guided.  I also am not discribing a religious conversion experience.  Skip the word "religious" and lets just start over.  Did donation have;, before, during or after, a period of time that was very intense, meaningful, life changing and about which you are still striving to understand?  So to speak, did donation stir things up for you in unexpected ways?

I am looking for common threads here, not some new form of division.  Rob

Offline ohtobeahayes

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2011, 03:29:16 PM »
My feeling that we, as humans, are all one kinda fueled my fire. If we are all one, then what I do for another, I do for myself. I'd like to think that if I needed a kidney, someone somewhere would feel that same feeling I felt---the non fear of it all. It IS bigger than us. I think that sometimes we are so "used" to the common every day miracles around us that we "miss" it: the magic that is everywhere. It sounds so silly maybe, but the very fact that trees give off what we need, and we exhale some of what they need is magic. How about the way we grow humans from cells so small they can't be seen? Animals do the same thing, and sometimes we act like that's no big deal either. We grow sustainable food right out of the GROUND! The way be build buildings- roads-all these things. Millions of little acts of kindness float around and maybe go unacknowledged because we are so used to some of them, but it's all magic, acknowledged or not. Especially, maybe, when us silly, silly humans do something to reach out and touch another human in love. One of my favorite sayings is a Native American saying: No tree has branches so foolish as to fight amongst themselves. So in that way ...yes. I can *SEE* how BIG living donation is when I see you do it, or her do it, or anyone else do it. I can see the big picture of it, see how not only that person is affected, but their entire lives- their families, their jobs, the people they know that they tell about it. Gosh, the surgeons, nurses....It's ENORMOUS.  In a world where tragedy tends to get more air time on TV than the miracles, and where mother nature can reclaim hundreds of thousands of lives in one might wave, or storm....we sometimes forget how our acts of love and kindness really do go on and affect far more people in far more ways than we see. For now.
Before I donated, the night before, I could feel IT. I was overwhelmed with the feeling that perhaps my recipient was feeling, somewhere in the world. I was going to give up a KIDNEY so he could live a little longer. HIS LIFE. I totally and completely affected a universe in another state. That's CRAZY. I can barely really think about it, can't wrap my mind around it.

Be the change!
Nicki

Offline pilotjjc3

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2011, 03:39:06 PM »
The experience I had was not one of being "called", lead or guided.  I also am not discribing a religious conversion experience.  Skip the word "religious" and lets just start over.  Did donation have;, before, during or after, a period of time that was very intense, meaningful, life changing and about which you are still striving to understand?  So to speak, did donation stir things up for you in unexpected ways?

I am looking for common threads here, not some new form of division.  Rob

Why did you donate?  No right or wrong answer, just curious. Glad you did.

Offline Clark

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2011, 06:52:51 PM »
Rob, excellent initial question, and excellent follow up to clarify that "religious experience" was an attempt to describe an indescribable experience you had, and wonder if others have had.  If one doesn't feel the words work, but others might to be responsive to his question, please try to be understanding of the difficulties inherent in honest introspection of wordless feelings.

As a Bright, a person with a worldview free of supernatural elements, I do not presume that any supernatural qualities or causes influenced me, occurred, or resulted from my donation.  That doesn't mean I didn't hope for it, especially for support during challenging emotional times on my path to surgery.  That doesn't mean I don't respect the honest interpretations of Supers, persons with worldviews that include supernatural elements, who say that they found grace, in some form.  I make no claim of such, though it was deeply transformative for me.

I found donation a period of time, and ultimately a moment, of profound self discovery.  I have been repeatedly surprised in the more than eight years since at how profound and wide ranging are the impacts of my journey on myself and others.  It was an unanticipated sharp turn in my life path as I had assumed it would progress, and the twists and turns I can identify as occurring solely because of it keep coming.  

I want to be clear about language, and usage, and their impact on behavior and policy.  Over the course of the last three years as I sat in on the OPTN/UNOS Board and KidneyCom meetings, I tried to encourage clear language.  Just as deceased donor family members have promoted "deceased donor" as preferable to "cadaveric donor," we have succeeded in getting attention and respect for "non-directed donor" and "directed donor."  Why should "altruistic" only be afforded to the motivations of non-directed donors?  While some may feel there are reciprocal altruistic reasons for their donations, whether directed or not, and while some engage in more commodified exchanges, willingly or less so, these are not required.  

We give our gifts because we are able to and choose to respond in this way to an awareness of another's need.  No more is needed.  The need exists, and has for all human existence.  Technology means a response to the need is possible.  The available response requires sacrifice by another, regardless of whether appropriately deceased, living, coerced, or compensated.  We choose to give a gift.  Just as with my 43 gallons of blood donated, and tens of thousands of donations collected at blood drives I've organized, I get it, I understand these people, these are my people.  The people who respond, who act as needed once they know of a need.  We are in a tiny minority, but multibillion dollar industries and the continued existences of hundreds of thousands, even millions of people depend on us continuing to make these choices.  

Did I have a "religious experience" donating a kidney?  Do I have one at every one, at any one, of my more than 300 blood donations?  Do I have one at my blood drives?  Did I have one at national transplantation policy meetings?  When I read or post to LDO?  I can't say.  I don't think so.  But my understanding of the phrase suggests all these things could be labeled so, if I chose to.  It's your call, as it always is and has been.  
Unrelated directed kidney donor in 2003, recipient and I both well.
620 time blood and platelet donor since 1976 and still giving!
Elected to the OPTN/UNOS Boards of Directors & Executive, Kidney Transplantation, and Ad Hoc Public Solicitation of Organ Donors Committees, 2005-2011
Proud grandpa!

 

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