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Offline Rob_h

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2011, 08:55:15 PM »
Hi John,

I think in paragraph 3 you are saying much what I am saying,  just very uneasy about the terms "religious experience", which is hard to get a handle on.  I hope I did not suggest that my walk in some was was a "connection" with any supernatural force, as I have never thought of it in that way, but more like a breakthrough of sorts in which some of the ideas that were holding me back; could I do this without any support, what would happen to my teenage children if I died, how much family crap was I going to have to resist about the "worthy" issue, did I have the time became resolved in that walk and I felt very sure and relaxed about the decision and the challanges it would entail.  The point of my post is about the experience being outside of logic, hard to understand, intense, meaningful, real, lasting. Just beyond the tips of ones fingers.

As to why I donated, it was my belief in non violence and the need to make a statement that we are our brother or sisters keepers, as a counter point to the endless violence I was seeing around me. Rob Halverson

Offline bergstromtori

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2011, 10:12:58 PM »
I am donating one week from tomorrow.  Last week I had a spiritual experience (my preferred term) where I felt like after 36 years of living I finally knew what was important.  Family and friends are everything, forget all the other crap/stuff we surround ourselves with.  People even mentioned this noticeable change in me.  I am not afraid at all and feel totally at peace.  I love telling people what will be happening.  I feel that talking about it in turn makes others contemplative of what is important.  The act of talking about it with others allows them to take the altruistic "vibe" and spread it around the rest of the day.

And no, I am not a hippy. ;D
The donation is being made because I wish that someone could have done something like this to save my moms life.  I am not going to let a disease take my friend from his three kids the way my mom was taken from me, my brother and sister.

Offline bergstromtori

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2011, 10:13:28 PM »
Well maybe just a little.
The donation is being made because I wish that someone could have done something like this to save my moms life.  I am not going to let a disease take my friend from his three kids the way my mom was taken from me, my brother and sister.

Offline Rob_h

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2011, 06:05:39 AM »
Its a bit like falling in love, first the experience, then years of trying to understand it.  I can't discribe "it", but I do think there is a common experience that is not just some subjective thing. Read Henry James, Michael Jackson. Something like  falling in love.  You know it when you see in in a couple, but its pretty hard to discribe. Rob  BTW, I also had a change in kind, way of seeing things, what mattered, how I ordered things. 

 So many of us who are regular posters at LDO created an unusual connection / mission with donation; skipping the hot button of RE, its a special experience that it seems we should look into?.  For me, I first wanted to make donation more possible, then when I got sick and thought it might be the donation, more careful, and now, I'm not sure. best wishes, Rob Halverson

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2011, 12:51:10 PM »
Rob,

Please do not change your verbage.  I was not in the slightest offended by what you said and what you asked and was simply responding as best I could.  I think it's wonderful you brought in the religious side of donation as I couldn't have done it without prayer, and there are others who feel that way.  This isn't about "right" or "wrong."  This is about you feeling a religious pull in whatever way it's speaking to you.  We all experience God and religion differently.  Do not take the word religion out if that's what you felt was the right word to use.  It's YOUR religious experience.  I shared mine.  Others shared theirs.  That's why I love this site.  No offense taken at all.

Please...follow where you are feeling led.  Whether by God, Christ, or any other regligious means...follow it.  That's what a religious experience is.  Following where YOU are led.  Since I'm the one that commented on the word "salvation" I was wondering if you were referring to me.  Please know that I was so moved by your question that I talked to my pastor about it.  I'm the last person who wants to claim this isn't a religious experience for you, as if you feel it is, IT IS!  At one point I became concerned about myself that I'd confuse donation with salvation.  Reading that quote kept me grounded is all I was saying.  But I can truly tell you that donation took my religion to new levels of commitment.

I hope I better expressed myself this time.  :-)  Kudos to you for having the guts to bring this into the forefront of discussion.


Best,


Lee


Offline Barbara S

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2011, 08:33:04 PM »
I agree - excellent question.

For me - there were many factors, I love my brother - and I really felt a "calling" to be his donor from the moment we learned he would need a transplant.

I am not a highly religous person, but went to my Rabbi - not to ask his permission (although I wasnt sure what his position would be) but just to make sure that my decision was one that he thought was a good one (I am a single mom - and was worried about my kids) He told me not only was it a mitzvah (a good deed) to donate, but it was an obligation I had - to help if I could.  It really made me feel better, and at peace with my decision. 

For me - donating was like giving birth again, it was a rich, wonderful, very spiritual experience.
Proud Kidney Donor to Brother
December 9, 2003
at Robert Wood Johnson University Hospital

Offline sherri

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2011, 09:52:38 PM »
Hi Barbara,

I wonder what would have happened if you asked that particular Rabbi about donating and told him that you really didn't want to donate. Would he still have said you were obligated? I am not a Rabbinic authority, but I believe Rabbinic commentary overall is of the opinion that organ donation is not obligatory but as you said a good deed, maybe what some may call Tikkun Olam (bettering the world). Most people translate the concept of mitzvah as a good deed but really it comes from the root word tzaveh which means commanded or obligated. Over the years people have translated mitzvah to good deed. If this was the case, as an observant Jew I would all be obligated to donate a kidney if I am healthy the same way I am obligated in the other commandments. So it really isn't obligatory but rather voluntary. It would be a wonderful act of kindness or "chessed" to do this for someone but in my humble opinion and maybe even some religious authorities one is not obligated to risk their life. There is a lot written in Jewish responsa whether it is even permissible to have elective surgery. Clearly it has now been established that given the minimal risk to one's self it is permissible to undergo this surgery and as you said considered an true act of kindness.

For me I felt a sense of pressure psychologically, emotionally and religiously. There was an enormous sense of guilt if I did not do this and passed up on the opportunity to do a "mitzvah" even one that I may not have technically been obligated in. I felt that if I didn't do it I would not only be disappointing myself and my family, but God as well and deserving of punishment. Every Yom Kippur I ask for forgiveness as I always felt like I fell short of my obligation. Jewish law differentiates between one who is obligated and one who is not obligated in a mitzvah. The concept is: (sounds better in hebrew)"Greater (and the understanding here is reward) is the one who obligated than the one who is not obligated". The one who is obligated deserves more because he/she performed the act because God commanded it whether they wanted to do it or not. This is a very different concept in the transplant setting where the "altruistic" donor (their term not mine) is not expected to do this compared to a family donor.

I take comfort in the fact that no one is perfect and perhaps this was a test for me personally. Did I pass? Not sure. I have a greater appreciation for the story of Jonah (also aptly read on Yom Kippur). Jonah was commanded (that word again) by God to go to the city of Ninveh and tell them to repent. Jonah did not want to do God's commandment (lots of interpretation why) and tried to run from God. Then you get the whole story of the "whale" (great fish). Sometimes it is hard to do what it required of us.

Sorry for going on so long. Don't usually mix religion and transplant on this board but did find the topic thought provoking.

Sherri

Sherri
Living Kidney Donor 11/12/07

Offline Scott337

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2011, 12:40:10 AM »
Rob,

I consider myself a very spiritual person and while my belief is that I was "called" to become a donor to someone I had never met, as Father Pat described, my decision was in keeping with my beliefs and when I decided to donate I thought..."if not me, then who and if not now, when?"   It did seem like a no-brainer to me also. 

It mattered not to me who the recipient was or if they were worthy, I guess I honestly wondered more about whether I was worthy of being so intimately involved in another's life.  I felt so strongly about this, I nearly decided not to meet my recipient as I was faced with doubt about being a match, about the success of the transplant in making the recipient's life better or offering some sort of false hope.  Ultimately, my coordinator and social worker both talked me into meeting the recipient and his family (I'm so happy I did). 

I remember the first night after the surgery, waking in the middle of the night.  As I looked out my window at the lights of Minneapolis and the gentle rain coming down, I was overcome with an incredibly unexplainable sense of loneliness and self-doubt.  After some time of introspect I came to the realization that I was emotionally overwhelmed and so extremely humbled by the entire experience.  I expected to feel like a hero but instead, I felt as though I had somehow encroached on someone else's life's journey.  It was then I came to realize, what a miracle of life I had been chosen to experience and how it had certainly, in the space of a day, changed MY life forever. 

I recognize this as being moved by the Holy Spirit, although others may call it simply a "feeling", but in the end, what truly matters my friend, is the realization that "life won't wait" and some how, in different ways, we each receive our own calling to do what matters most....to act!

Bless you Rob for listening to the voice inside you and letting it call you to action - good luck in your journey and please keep us posted! 

Scott   8)
Scott

Offline bergstromtori

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2011, 10:40:54 AM »
Scott,
I don't donate until Tuesday, but I totally get what you mean about intruding on someone journey.  During our pre op appointment the other day I was sitting with my friend (the recipient) and his wife.  I felt like I was ease dropping on something private.  They are really nice and open, but I can't help but feel that I am taking away their privacy.  We have the same social circle and everyone is making such a big deal over me and I don't want take anything away from him.  He is the one with real battles.  How do you feel now?
Tori
The donation is being made because I wish that someone could have done something like this to save my moms life.  I am not going to let a disease take my friend from his three kids the way my mom was taken from me, my brother and sister.

Offline WilliamLFreeman

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2011, 04:25:46 PM »
Barbara & Sherri & y'all,

The varying rabbinic opinions in your 2 posts remind of the saying among us Jews, "3 Jews?  5.3 opinions!"  (Don't worry about the math, y'all. ;D )

I am studying the Jewish Halakhah (= rulings by rabbinic leaders [hereafter "rabbis"] about religious law, obligations, mitzvah/mitzvot, etc.) regarding living kidney donation.  Many different rabbis, many different rulings.

The basic possible categories are:  always obligatory without exception; obligatory with rare exceptions; permissible; prohibited with rare exceptions, always prohibited.  Although MOST respected rabbis who have written on this topic say living organ donation (or similar self-endangerment) is permissible to save a life, a quite small number have said it is prohibited, and a very few obligatory.  Usually the latter ruling is specific for the particular circumstances -- e.g., very little risk to the self-endangering person, or the person is a physician caring for people with an infectious disease (think HIV/AIDS).  The Rabbi for Barbara S probably thought (or Barbara told him) that the risk was quite small, that the recipient was her brother, that she felt a strong responsibility for his health, and that she really wanted to donate her kidney to him.  Thus, her Rabbi's ruling was not just permissible but obligatory for her with her specific circumstances.   His ruling of donation being "obligatory" for Barbara S was not necessarily a ruling for all potential living kidney donations, or even all sister-to-brother donations.  (I have several good, comprehensive, references on the Halakhah of living organ donation; if you want them, please e-mail me.)

BTW, Sherri, I am a non-directed donor, but never apply the term "altruistic" to only non-directed donors (i.e., not applying it to directed donors).  The differential application of "altruistic" to only non-directed donors was/is done primarily by transplant center or similar officials, although less so recently as Clark noted in his post.  In fact, most non-directed donors I know apply "altruistic" to all donors, as I do.  Clark & I had found we had independently arrived at the same conclusion on this topic.   :)

Bill
Bill - living kidney donor (non-directed, Seattle, Nov 24, 2008), & an [aging] physician  :-)

Offline Fr Pat

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2011, 03:45:31 AM »
     Although I have already posted my personal experience on this topic, I thought I might add an observation that occurs to me on reading the experiences of many others.
     It seems to me that most, if not all, living donors find the donation to be a profound and moving experience. Some (like myself) already have from our particular religious beliefs/traditions some ready-made vocabulary that helps us make sense of what we are experiencing and to express it somewhat. Other donors may experience "it" (as someone has wisely said here) but not as yet have the right words for them to really express what they have experienced. There are realities that not even the greatest poet can adequately express.
     I recall someone sharing a teaching she had received from a Buddhist guide. The guide noted that if you burn your hand on hot stove your other hand will instantly reach out to hold/comfort the burned hand. You don't even think about it. It just happens because the body knows that all the parts are one. He said that is what "compassion" means. All people are one. If one persons suffers, the reaction of another person OUGHT to be to instantly reach out to help/comfort, without even having to think about it. Sadly, we can build up so much indifference and egoism that we block that instant and automatic response of compassion. Organ donation is, I think, letting that natural compassion flow and make "it" a reality rather than an idea. It can help us discover (perhaps to our surprise) who and what we really are in the universe, and that can be described, I think, as a "religious" experience.
    Fr. Pat

Offline PhilHoover

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As A Christian...
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2011, 04:17:48 AM »
I am not the LEAST bit ashamed to say that God the Holy Spirit (Third person of the Trinity) spoke to my heart about becoming a living kidney donor, in answer to prayer.

Does the Lord speak to everyone?    My answer is "Yes, if they are willing to listen and obey..."

It was the hand of the LORD that led me through this entire experience.   I knew that I could be the "answer" to a prayer that I had prayed for someone to become a kidney donor for my former professor.   I was that answer...

It was the wonderful people of God who were praying for me through the entire process (which took a lot longer than I personallly thought it should have...)

It was the hand of God that REFUSED to let me "rush this process"....because (looking back), if I had "done it my way"...it would have probably been disastrous--or at least very problematic---on so many fronts.

Yes, this was very much a "religious experience."  One of obedience for me...
Donated to a former college professor, October 28, 2009. Would do it again in a nanosecond.

Offline shelley

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2011, 10:16:58 AM »
This is a wonderful, stimulating discussion which I'm enjoying immensely.  Here's my two cents.

I believe we walk through life with sort of a sphere of influence, like a space around us that is ours to affect for good, to do our best in.  Our part is to keep our eyes, ears and heart wide open and do the next right thing as it gets presented to us.  Heather came into my sphere of influence.  It was always the most natural thing, the logical next step, to give her my kidney.  The spiritual experience in this for me is a deep sense of rightness, of "well done", but not of heroism.  Being a kidney donor to Heather was in my sphere; it wasn't in anyone else's -- they have their own set of "next right things" to do which TO ME look like heroism.

That sense of "well done" is powerfully addictive for me; I want to keep getting it, and intend to spend the rest of my days with eyes, ears and heart wide open.

Offline Scott337

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2011, 07:27:01 PM »
Well said Shelley.   8)

Scott
Scott

Offline WilliamLFreeman

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Re: religious experience?
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2011, 08:14:33 PM »
Shelley,

Thank you for your donation! -- and for your e-mail.  If I understand what you wrote, your "religious experience" was before, not after, your donation.  If that is not what you meant, I apologize for not understanding.

In any case, that was my own history.  After having an "ah-ha" moment that I could be a non-directed donor, I first read all the research there was to read about the safety of being a living donor.  I was not a risk-taker, far from it.  And, of course, living kidney donation is not "safe" -- nothing is completely safe -- but I found it was "safe enough."  Once past that, I became increasingly convinced that donating was "right" for me to do.  (I did not want to donate, however, if further testing showed it was not safe enough for me after all, or if my kidney would not really help the recipient.)  My self-understanding became "I am a donor" -- and the to-be-donated kidney was no longer mine, but I was just a temporary custodian of another's kidney & I must take special care of it!  To donate was my Jewish ethics, "inherited" from my father and what he had done all his life.  I would call that a "religious experience" before donating, that led to my donation -- even if others might not call it that.   :)

Bill
Bill - living kidney donor (non-directed, Seattle, Nov 24, 2008), & an [aging] physician  :-)

 

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