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Author Topic: LinkedIn group discussion: Should donors get paid?  (Read 5883 times)

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Offline Clark

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LinkedIn group discussion: Should donors get paid?
« on: October 02, 2011, 04:43:58 PM »
This question and my answer seem like they belong here to me, not just on the LinkedIn group site.

http://www.linkedin.com/groupItem?view=&gid=128057&type=member&item=73496112&qid=3be9f981-5fe3-4805-b9f6-1b2f33340de5&trk=group_most_popular-0-b-ttl&goback=%2Egde_128057_member_73496112%2Egmp_128057

"Should donors get paid?
I donated a kidney to my brother 10 years ago, it was a no brainer decision with never a thought of compensation. Later I sat on a panel with a group of people who had also donated to family or friends. We were talking with a group of people who did not the option of a family donor. One man made it clear that we did not have much to share with them. They were looking for ways to find an organ from a stranger.

I read the post about military people who might make a good pool of donors. This would make sense if those people could be compensated. The hospital, surgical staff, nurses, pharmaceutical companies and everyone else is compensated. Why not the donor?

I put this out not because I think donors should be paid. I honestly am not sure how I feel about it and would like to hear the thoughts of others."

My response:

There are several threads and many news and opinion articles on this topic in the Living Donors Online discussion forum. I've gone head to head on this with several folks over the years. I, too, try to keep an open mind due to my understanding of the diverse points of view of transplantation, and my recognition that I speak only for myself, not prescriptively or prohibitively for others.

My position has developed toward advocating for strict, verifiable, institutionally self reinforcing prerequisite protocols for informed consent, donor candidate dignity and autonomy, and universal long term follow up testing and medical and psychological care. I avoid the discussions of the risk of human trafficking and class exploitation, as that is already extant worldwide. While it would be desirable to me to try to build into any proposed compensation scheme ways to reduce or eliminate this exploitation, I have decided it's beside the point. Until the medical community, the transplantation industry, worldwide demonstrate functional, effective, self reinforcing controls to recognize the human rights and extraordinary, unique sacrifices of donors, and behave accordingly, universally, any discussion of compensation of vendors is premature.

Arguably, Canada and most European countries have done better at this than the U.S. and the rest of the world solely by providing universal health care. Additional anecdotal evidence from self reporting donors in the LDO discussion forum suggests even they have not managed regular, statistically significant long term analyses of donor outcomes and well being, nor have they consistently displayed sensitivity or comprehension of the distinctly different character of a donor candidate as a patient.

It may be that a well designed market can be constructed and regulated to provide the protections against victimization a free market seems unavoidably heir to. It may be that this could provide a supply from vendors large enough to eliminate waiting lists, with violating human rights or precipitating class war, even if altruistic donation declined to nothing, a consistently proffered counterargument. I don't know, though I have strong reservations. It is a complicating moral difficulty that the transplant tourism industry continues to flourish. The existing economic incentives are skewed strongly toward some deeply entrenched industrial interests as well as rewarding amoral actors willing to violate the law with demonstrably little risk of sanction.

Again, I feel discussion of lawful compensation of vendors is premature. A polity, such as the U.S. government, must demonstrate successful realignment of the economic incentives for surgeons, transplant centers, dialysis centers, and would be recipients so that it isn't in any of their interests to short change or circumvent due diligence in dealing with donors. Without such a transparent, widely recognized, successful demonstration over time, they can not sanction consumption of some of their own relatively economically disadvantaged citizens to benefit others. Moreover, while the example of Iran's market is often problematically held up as a success, I suggest its sole true success is demonstration of how critical it will be to restrict such a scheme to within a national boundaries. Their rigid restriction that vendors and buyers both be Iranian has prevented the development of rampant tourism such as occurred in such notorious quantity in Asia and South Asia, where the black market has thrived in various locations and times for decades.

Is my redirection of the debate clear? Acceptable? At base, I say, do it right first, which you haven't yet, and then let's talk. Remain slipshod and indifferent, as you are, and it's too soon to even discuss what might obtain if you could do it right.

Along these lines, I hope you'll take a look at the three living donor proposals out for public comment from the OPTN.
Unrelated directed kidney donor in 2003, recipient and I both well.
625 time blood and platelet donor since 1976 and still giving!
Elected to the OPTN/UNOS Boards of Directors & Executive, Kidney Transplantation, and Ad Hoc Public Solicitation of Organ Donors Committees, 2005-2011
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Offline Rob_h

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Re: LinkedIn group discussion: Should donors get paid?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2011, 05:23:22 PM »
It seems to me that this is an issue that those of us who are involved in kidney transplantaion/doantion will be considering for a long time to come.  It would help if we all knew first hand more about the groups affected.  I would guess almost none of us know any donors who have been paid via the "black market", or the legal market in Iran.  It would be interesting.  But some of us know people who need kidneys or who have recieved a kidney.  My son at 19 was so lucky and some day is projected to need another.  I get the need that doesn't care about the means. Dialysis can look like death row.  My observation is just a pitch for understanding the issue from the perspective of the affected parties. best wishes, Rob Halverson

Offline Rob_h

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Re: LinkedIn group discussion: Should donors get paid?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2011, 07:34:19 PM »
Sorry Clark I didn't finish my thought.  My point was I was striving to see this issue from a person on dialysis's point of view.  I think if that was my situation and the waiting list was some 7 years long and the average life span on dialysis was five years I would be in favor esp. of the government making some compensation available to encourage more donors to step forward.  I would still be worried about the issue of honesty of the history of at least some of these donors and my increased risk, but relative to the risk of no donor at all I might find it reasonable.

I am not saying this is the only point of view or even should get the bigest say/vote; just worth considering what it looks like from his/her eyes.  b.w. Rob

Offline Clark

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Re: LinkedIn group discussion: Should donors get paid?
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2011, 09:17:09 PM »
Dear Rob,

  I have complete empathy and sympathy for would be recipients facing long waits on dialysis, as you know, I made a preemptive gift to my unrelated recipient.  The difficulty I have is the imputed moral equivalence exhibited by so many, as you describe.  The recipient's need for treatment is not equal to the donor's willingness to take personal health and well being risk to provide one among an array of potential treatments for the recipient.  That is a decision each of us are entitled to make, without our own government or wider society putting their thumb on the scale of our consideration by introducing an economic incentive large enough to entice more living people to accept this risk than already do, by definition putting aside formerly decisive misgivings in favor of payment.

  The ESRD sufferer, regardless of cause, is a victim of a disease, and is entitled to seek treatment.  Appropriate diet is an effective treatment, for a relatively short time, a tragedy.  The outrage we all feel at untimely death due to disease or any cause motivated research for better treatment, and dialysis is more effective.  Successful transplantation from identical twin living donors was superior for the recipient, but brought pain, scarring, and unquantified risk of longer term complications to the donor.  Not to mention how rare it was for a would be recipient to have a healthy identical twin available, presumed willing, and also presumed to not be susceptible to renal failure from the same, potentially inherited, cause and his or her twin.  The dialysis industry grew, and continues to grow even though advances in immunosuppressives drug therapies have permitted the wide diversity of deceased and living donor relationships we now see.

  Statistically, dialysis is superior to diet change alone, transplantation is superior to dialysis, and living donor transplantation is superior to deceased donor transplantation, FOR THE RECIPIENT.  Not for the living donor.  Critically, these are broad statistical differences, not absolutes, and not universals.  I have met extraordinary individuals surviving for decades without dialysis with double digit creatinine.  I have discussed the implications for allocation policy for the known and unexpected groups and individuals whose health fails rapidly despite dialysis, making a wait even of months a death sentence.  I know stalwarts on dialysis who are moving into their second decades without ever once considering taking a deceased donor kidney from "the kids who need them more" or a living donor kidney "risk someone else's life, and my own in surgery, so I can bananas again?  Are you crazy?"  All of us here have faced the certain knowledge that some donors do die, on the table, in the recovery room, on the ward, at home weeks, months, or years afterward.  Coma, disability, pain, increased risk of ESRD ourselves, hard, hard, hard, to look at straight, discuss honestly with our loved ones, and explain why we're still going forward.  Yet we do.

  Could money bring in vendors enough to more than make up for an expected decline in donors?  Enough money, I believe so.  A strong, argument to relieve the suffering of hundreds of thousands, and more very day.  But what of the vendors?  Will we permit an exploited underclass to be created and left with the token fig leaf of follow up we've accepted?  The fig leaf that even now is being actively resisted by OPTN member representatives at the ongoing regional meetings?  What about the disturbing number of tragic stories posters here at LDO have shared with us over the years, of surgeons and transplant centers who do not, will not, own an error or happenstance and provide care, care that CMS says it does and will cover?  Never forget that our border is porous, even now admitting many foreign nationals to be "donors" when sworn testimony has been offered to the FBI that at least some of them are vendors, not donors, reputedly with the knowing complicity of transplant center administration, staff, and medical and surgical team members.  Or that transplant centers have many recipients getting their followup care domestically after surgery overseas.  

  Some say, the black market and its ills will only be eliminated by a sufficiently large, efficient, legal market.  That may be so.  But unless I see a track record over time demonstrating that the transplant professionals have learned, have taken ownership, and have effectively restructured the business so that the incentives unambiguously are against exploitation, good studies are published, and truly universal buy in to a "failure is not an option" mindset, then I can not accept on faith that they will do any better for vendors than they have for us as a group.  Granted, it seems the vast, overwhelming majority of us do well enough to lend credence to their presumption that all is well.  It is how they handle the exceptions, or rather, how some of them fail to handle those of us for whom the picture is not perfect, that they must be judged on.  Until they prove they've gotten this under control we can not trust that vendors will be treated any better.
Unrelated directed kidney donor in 2003, recipient and I both well.
625 time blood and platelet donor since 1976 and still giving!
Elected to the OPTN/UNOS Boards of Directors & Executive, Kidney Transplantation, and Ad Hoc Public Solicitation of Organ Donors Committees, 2005-2011
Proud grandpa!

Offline Fr Pat

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Re: LinkedIn group discussion: Should donors get paid?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2011, 02:02:42 AM »
     I myself am glad to see that this topic brings forth some longer-than-usual postings, as there are a LOT of very important factors that should be carefully weighed.
     I think (as has been noted elsewhere by others) that in the U.S. there is still a lot that can and should be done to remove the financial dis-incentives to living donation before considering offering financial incentives. For example:
--- fully pay all lost wages during surgery and recovery, plus any travel, lodging or other expenses involved.
--- guarantee against job loss due to absence for donation surgery/recovery.
--- guarantee against future discrimination against living donors in obtaining/keeping health and life insurance.
--- providing ALL living donors with the temporary special health insurance policy now given to some donors at some hospitals.
--- guarantee an independent unbiased binding arbitration if there is a dispute between the donor and the hospital as to whether a later health problem is or is not a result of the donation.

   All in all, take the steps to prevent the living donor from suffering financial LOSS due to the donation surgery.
              Fr. Pat

Offline Rob_h

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Re: LinkedIn group discussion: Should donors get paid?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2011, 07:57:23 AM »
I guess if I was somehow put in the judge position I would agree with most of the points Clark made, but I would excuse myself as I am way too close to the person in need of a kidney to ever settle the moral question of the rights of possible donors vs. possible persons in need of kidneys. 

One other point that may not have been mentioned that I have seen before and makes more sense to me than cold cash, a payment in kind, such as health ins.   Also I fully agree that everything should be done to make donation safe and expense free.  Its always be amazing to me how little effort was made to keep my expenses down or to follow up by the center I donated at.   Blood donors are better supported!  BW, Rob

Offline ohtobeahayes

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Re: LinkedIn group discussion: Should donors get paid?
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2011, 09:29:58 AM »
I'm enjoying reading this thread! don't have enough time to really do this correctly, but one of the things that a surgeon at the U of M wondered is if there were some non-direct financial compensation, such as *free* life insurance for the duration of donor's lives, if that would help encourage donors as well as make them feel supported for the long term. I have always thought that was interesting.
Thank you for this thread, i will continue to enjoy hearing differing ideas and perspectives.
Be the change!
Nicki

 

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